Snowtroopers.ca - Star Wars collecting news and information in Canada.

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Looking into the forum errors


SPONSORS

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
January 22, 2018, 01:33:23 AM

Login with username, password and session length


65 Guests, 1 User
 
Pages: [1] 2 3   Go Down

Author Topic: Snowtroopers.ca - Integrity issues?  (Read 8483 times)

arizona

  • Empire
  • Snowtrooper Commander
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 302
  • Let me put on my surprised face!
    • View Profile
Snowtroopers.ca - Integrity issues?
« on: August 13, 2007, 07:22:42 PM »

I post this as protection to all members of this board who deal regularly in the B/S/T section.

The negative feedback section was created to inform sellers of issues with other dealers. Similar to the e-bay feedback section, I made a post in there a few weeks back with regards to a deal that did not go smoothly. Mysteriously my post disappeared last week.

After investigating I found out it was a Moderator who deleted the thread because they felt that since the items had finally been received the deal was complete therefore it wasn't a negative deal. Without contacting me for details on the transaction and only hearing from the member that the negative feedback was left against requesting a free pass they removed the post without informing me or contacting me in any way, shape or form to find out why the negative feedback was left.

I was contacted by the Moderator some time later with their excuse as to why they did it. I was assured the post would be reposted as it was originally written on Friday night. To this date there is still nothing.

When something like this happens it questions the integrity of the moderators on this board. (I will comment that there are many good moderators on this board.) However this does not apply to the one who did this.

When posts such as this are deleted without any investigation or due diligence it is bad for the entire board. That section has now lost its integrity. How many other posts have been removed because of similar thinking?

EDITED: Title amended as I took offence to how it was originally presented. - jj
« Last Edit: August 13, 2007, 07:39:37 PM by jjreason »
Logged

jjreason

  • <A+ Trader>
  • Administrator
  • Sith Lord
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6874
  • "So long, Princess."
    • View Profile
Re: Snowtroopers.ca finally loses its integrity.
« Reply #1 on: August 13, 2007, 07:36:31 PM »

Arizona, I'll let this play out for awhile in the Wampa Cave so that the counter points of view can be displayed - but I'm eventually going to move it into the Bad Feedback Section.

I don't think the site has lost its integrity. Could things have been done differently? Yes. Can people learn from their mistakes through rational discourse that both exposes what someone perceives to be a mistake BUT also includes a suggestion for improvement so that things work better for everyone here? Certainly.

For all the trading, buying and selling that goes on at this site we receive an incredibly - unbelievably almost - small number of unresolved complaints.

As a person looking here to buy, sell and/or trade - do your own "due diligence" (as Arizona did in his case, of this I'm sure). Check the feedback. Ask around. Come to an agreement as to how things will work and then have a great time dealing with the other members here.

I'd also like to suggest that the ease with which you were able to find out exactly what happened to your missing post would argue strongly in favour of the high level of integrity shown by the members here.... but that's my own opinion.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2007, 07:38:19 PM by jjreason »
Logged

Sifo-Dyas

  • (A+ Trader)
  • Empire
  • Sith Lord
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1314
  • Still Needs More Cowbell!
    • View Profile
    • VIEW MY HAVES/WANTS LIST...
Re: Snowtroopers.ca finally loses its integrity.
« Reply #2 on: August 13, 2007, 07:51:42 PM »

I don't think it's hard for anyone who pays attention to figure out what happened.
Yes, I agree that post should have stayed. There should be a record kept of things like this, which is why you posted it. If you wanted it deleted, then you would have done it yourself. What interest does this Mod have in interfering with this?
(I think I know the answer but the members should be asking the question)

Here's a suggestion for improving  how things should be moving forward:
Mods shouldn't be running around deleting things like this at their discretion. The board is for all members and the negative feedback section is there for a reason.


I advise you request that the Administrators immediately de-Mod the Mod.
You should also post who the Mod is. They should be accountable to the members and explain themselves to the membership.

Mods also shouldn't be deleting posts because they feel a post makes a member look bad especially when the post is just coherently and validly pointing out the flawed logic of another post or the self contradictory statements made by staff. It's a DISCUSSION forum for crying out loud! This discussion forum is far too restrictive of open discussion, self criticism, grievance voicing and dissention.
Improvement ONLY comes from critique of past performance.
Logged
View My HAVES/WANTS LIST[/color]           View FEEDBACK

"If We Can't Laugh At The Dead, We Have No Business Killing People. "

Sifo-Dyas

  • (A+ Trader)
  • Empire
  • Sith Lord
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1314
  • Still Needs More Cowbell!
    • View Profile
    • VIEW MY HAVES/WANTS LIST...
Re: Snowtroopers.ca - Integrity issues?
« Reply #3 on: August 13, 2007, 07:59:35 PM »

Sorry for double post but I'd like to add that it's very difficult to do your own due dilligence when site staff has deleted the documented history of negative feedback for a member who's reputation they (or one of them) are trying to protect. I don't even know why you'd say that in these circumstances.


Also, editing/censoring the title is intrusive and overly oppressive. He stated that it's his opinion that the site has lost integrity. He did not ask it as a question. He should be allowed to voice that as his opinion without being censored because a staffer is "offended" by his opinion. That in itself is an "integrity issue". This site has indeed lost integrity here in this very thread in my opinion.
Why censor a member's opinion or appraisal of the site or it's staff? How does that serve the integrity of the site or serve the members? It does not. It only serves you. A staffer that takes action on the site that affects the entire membership to serve himself harms the "integrity" of a website.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2007, 08:27:35 PM by Sifo-Dyas »
Logged
View My HAVES/WANTS LIST[/color]           View FEEDBACK

"If We Can't Laugh At The Dead, We Have No Business Killing People. "

jjreason

  • <A+ Trader>
  • Administrator
  • Sith Lord
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6874
  • "So long, Princess."
    • View Profile
Re: Snowtroopers.ca - Integrity issues?
« Reply #4 on: August 13, 2007, 09:46:39 PM »

I took offence to it, Sifo (not that it's any of your business - it's not) because I bent over backwards to resolve arizona's complaint in a timely fashion. A smack at this place in its entirety is, quite simply, something for me to take personally. I'm here for hours (and hours, and hours) each week, on my own time, trying to make this a decent place to come and discuss things.

It's plain to see what the title was. I didn't take it out of the second post in this thread so that people would have an opportunity to see what the original title was. If you feel his is more appropriate, so be it. I think his issue is with the mod and that person's actions - not the site as a whole - that's why I made the change.

And no, to answer your other question, the mod is not going to be "de-modded".... and no, neither of the Kevins or myself is going to flog that person here in public for everyone to see. To me, that would illustrate a much more gross example of a lack of integrity than someone removing a bad feedback thread about another user that has earned reams of positive feedback.... but I digress, and my opinions (though important to me) don't mean much in this instance.

I like this site and the users we have here. I like the fact that the conversation has become a lot more intelligent over the past year or so - it's indicative of the fact that the average user here now is quite a bit more mature than was exemplified even as recently as a year ago. Lastly, I like the fact that when people have issues, we're able to air them out and hear differing points of view.

« Last Edit: August 13, 2007, 09:55:05 PM by jjreason »
Logged

arizona

  • Empire
  • Snowtrooper Commander
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 302
  • Let me put on my surprised face!
    • View Profile
Re: Snowtroopers.ca finally loses its integrity.
« Reply #5 on: August 13, 2007, 10:09:57 PM »

I'd also like to suggest that the ease with which you were able to find out exactly what happened to your missing post would argue strongly in favour of the high level of integrity shown by the members here.... but that's my own opinion.

JJ there is no argument here. I made the comment that there are many good mods on this board. They were extremely helpful in getting to the bottom of this matter.

I was not about to use names. Whenever that happens it is personal attacks on members. By not using names it protects all parties.
(As I type this I see that you have identified yourself as the helpful source and it was greatly appreciated. Appologies if there was offence.)

Sifo I will be not posting the Moderators name. It would be irresponsible on my part. The mods name does not need to be posted to address the issue.

The post is to address that there are issues here that affect the board. The negative feedback thread is far to important to be ignored.

JJ as far as moving forward I have sent some suggestions to the mods.

Moderators should be the only people with delete privileges. No user should have the ability to delete posts (including their own). This way the integrity is never compromised.

If mods wish to delete posts they can lock them and place a notification in the post as to why it is deleted or changed. (This was done with your change to my title)

Logged

cmkjmacd

  • Empire
  • Sith Lord
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1378
  • You must unlearn what you have learned!
    • View Profile
Re: Snowtroopers.ca - Integrity issues?
« Reply #6 on: August 13, 2007, 10:54:42 PM »

I agree with the point that a comment left in the negative feedback forum  should be left up. Although I don't buy & sell/trade that often here (very little), but having the negative feedback about someone makes me think before doing business with a particular person (I use this a lot for ebay). I like to know what happened in the situation and what was done to try and resolve the problem if anything at all. To me if both parties came to some sort of agreement and it is posted, then there is some signs of integrity shown. If there is nothin done, then, there is a problem and it would make me really think about dealing with that person(s). I've noticed that there are a few issues that seem to keep coming up where we are losing good members over pety things. This is supposed to be a forum where we can vent (positive/negative) about Star Wars and other things. That is supposed to be the point of this forum, and yes there are going to be things said that not ever body is gonna like. Guess what, suck it up princess. We are not going to be going through life liking every single thing that everybody says or does. It is a fact of life. I do also agree with, that if someone is going to delete or lock a post there needs to be some discussion between the orginator of the post and a Mod. as to the reason why it is being done.
Logged

Slave1

  • Empire
  • Snowtrooper Lieutenant
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 233
    • View Profile
Re: Snowtroopers.ca - Integrity issues?
« Reply #7 on: August 14, 2007, 12:37:55 AM »

I do not know any of the details regarding the events that led to the negative feedback , but I dont think that at anytime any post by a user should be edited, modified and/or deleted.

I have noticed far too many times in the past posts being edited and or modified by mods.  I have found it to be one of negative aspects of this forum.  This kind of censorship should be reserved for blatent abuse of policies such as the the use of swearing, abuse, threats, etc. and never as a result someones opinion, even if offensive.

I feel a users negative feedback should be left even in the instance of it being investigated and being found innacurate by the recipient and the mod investigating it.

It is great that some of you have taken the time to express this concern.  I have always felt it needed to be addressed even for the smaller instances.

Please no more censoring/editing or deleting
Logged

Sifo-Dyas

  • (A+ Trader)
  • Empire
  • Sith Lord
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1314
  • Still Needs More Cowbell!
    • View Profile
    • VIEW MY HAVES/WANTS LIST...
Re: Snowtroopers.ca - Integrity issues?
« Reply #8 on: August 14, 2007, 02:58:43 AM »

Here's some airing of issues and differing points of view, for those of you who like that sort of thing:


Quote from: Snowtroopers.ca representative (name witheld):

"Sifo -  you're obviously trying to whip up an anti-mod or anti-admin sentiment amongst the members. Can I ask why? What are you hoping is going to happen? You must realize that there are other places for you to discuss Star Wars if you're not happy here. "



Sifo-Dyas: I'm not trying to "whip up anything". I legitimately resent the accusation that I'm "trying to whip up anti-admin. sentiment" and hold your statement as further evidence of how poorly the site's representatives deal with resolving member's concerns.

To the question, what am I hoping is going to happen, the answer is improvement.
Is your last comment suggesting that members who are not 100% "happy" with a forum or how issues are handled there should walk away and abandon it rather than contribute, offer suggestions for improvement and discuss the problem issues?
Shouldn't the members take an active role in improving anything that includes a membership? Is your opinion of what a member may deem taking an active role in improving things the only opinion that matters to you?
Do you not care if members feel that a Mod has acted inappropriately and has demonstrated a lack of the judgement, intelligence, diplomatic and critical thinking skills required to moderate the forum that they care about? Do you not care that they are posting their displeasure with these actions?
It sounds like you're saying, "you or any member being a pain in the ass about issues I'd rather not acknowledge or deal with can just leave and not bother trying to think that you can do anything to improve the situation or whip up trouble." So to speak.

Are you of the opinion that no Mod has acted inappropriately regarding these issues of lately? If not, then why not acknowledge that mistakes were made and lessons learned when the concerns are eventually posted publically etc. not behave as though no valid grievance(s) exists?

FYI: I never said that the site staff should post the name of the Mod. I said Arizona should. But issues should be openly addressed not swept under the rug.

If you're genuinely interested in improvement then you can relax because that's what I'm about; improvement and open discussion on a discussion forum, even the discussions that staff wishes that the members didn't think was important to discuss.

If all of the members got fed up with problems and permanently left when you suggested that they can just leave if they're not happy rather than do the right thing and ask what you can do to resolve the situation, what kind of a forum would you have then?


b-ill



Just to avoid confusion, I understand and appreciate that the Kevins have provided this forum for the members with nothing to gain for them personally. It's because of this mainly that I think it is only fair for the membership to take an active role in improving the forum, not abandon it if they feel unsatisfied with it.


 



« Last Edit: August 14, 2007, 03:03:08 AM by Sifo-Dyas »
Logged
View My HAVES/WANTS LIST[/color]           View FEEDBACK

"If We Can't Laugh At The Dead, We Have No Business Killing People. "

Darth Sinister

  • (A+ Trader)
  • Empire
  • Sith Lord
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 764
    • View Profile
Re: Snowtroopers.ca - Integrity issues?
« Reply #9 on: August 14, 2007, 08:25:43 AM »

I think that the mod in question would have been better to move the post to a disagreement (new section?) section of the feedback area, as I think that the details that started this do not warrant negative feedback. I do think Arizona has a very valid point and has reason to be upset and his post should not have been deleted. That being said, I also do not think starting a thread like this does anyone any service. Sifo I don't think you can suggest to de-mod someone without knowing all the details here.  This is one site where I have traded many times in person as well as through the mail and never had anything but awesome service from fellow members, 1 unfortunate incident with a newbie who has since been banned, but other than that I have had complete confidence with the troopers here. We should give the mods some slack as some of the things they delete/edit they make a judgement call on.

May I suggest that Arizona reposts his feedback, but that the mods create a new section for neutral/disagreements and place it in there. The member in question does not deserve a negative based on past performance and how he handled this situation. As for the mods they do a great job here on their own time in trying to make this a better place for canadian collectors.

mistersql

  • Empire
  • Sith Lord
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 541
  • Ta dah
    • View Profile
Re: Snowtroopers.ca - Integrity issues?
« Reply #10 on: August 14, 2007, 11:37:50 AM »

What attracted me to this forum early this year (apart from it catering to a Canadian audience) was the lack of mayhem.  The rules quite frankly make or break a site of this type.  The rx8 forum that I came from caused quite a few rifts with some members ultimately banning members and them joining a similar site without apparent rules.  There political, religious debates were allowed with what also seemed like freedom to pretty much say do or say whatever even tell each other where to shove it.  Both sites are still up last I checked and everyone seems happy.  This site has specific rules which I mentioned before that I like because the posts are not juvenile, except for an occasional prick telling others how to collect or how to appreceate the hobby.  Stuff like that can't be avoided since conflict in any goup cannot be avoided.

This finally brings me to the editing/censorship from mods.  If it violates forum rules or someone's first post is spam, do what what needs to be done.  If a member calls someone out on a bad deal and doesn't infringe on any rule then it should be up to both members to solve this between themselves less it starts to get nasty.

There was one occasion on the rx8 forum where I had said something anti american, the person replying edited my original post to say something completely different in his reply.  I told him that he misinterpreted what I was saying as a personal attack when it was merely an observation.  Regardless it didn't violate any rules and things sorted themselves out.  No biggie.
Logged

Radiation74

  • Guest
Re: Snowtroopers.ca - Integrity issues?
« Reply #11 on: August 14, 2007, 01:58:45 PM »

Well what else is there to discuss around here?


First of all I will address the concerns/complaints about mods editing/deleting posts


- The mods around this site are pretty easy going, we will edit posts ( often it is simply removing an expletive or other unsavoury word(s) )
- we usually leave the post and the user isn't even spoken to , unless it becomes a recurring problem
- the mods want to see this site stick around just as much as the members and we do listen to all feedback (+ and - )


- the deletion of the - feedback issue:

It happened, it's done. It might have been a mistake , it might not have been. I think it is time to move on. Did the deal warrant - feedback? Sure. Was the deal completed? Yes. It now seems that the completed deal which was originally completed is now being overlooked.

FROM NOW ON, NEG FEEDBACK WILL NOT BE DELETED. Although the member who had the neg feedback left will be able to reply in the same post.


And as far as losing integrity?  :~/~:

If trying to maintain a site on our own time and try to keep everyone happy is a loss of integrity.... then you might as well leave right now. If the aforementioned member who had the neg feedback left on him ever rips someone off ( which I know he wouldn't ), well I'll resign as a mod and member.
Alot of us know the members very well, that's what makes this site last... it is a community.


Now let's move along , when is Lucas gonna put SW on HD pr BR?


-Rad74
Logged

Darth Sinister

  • (A+ Trader)
  • Empire
  • Sith Lord
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 764
    • View Profile
Re: Snowtroopers.ca - Integrity issues?
« Reply #12 on: August 14, 2007, 02:03:15 PM »

3 cheers for Rad!!! :rockon:

Stealth_Cheets

  • Empire
  • Snowtrooper Lieutenant
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 156
    • View Profile
Re: Snowtroopers.ca - Integrity issues?
« Reply #13 on: August 14, 2007, 02:27:06 PM »

Darn, and I had just gotten my pitchfork out for the mod-hunt.

Oh well.  Peace at last!  :love0030:
Logged
Some of my toy reviews can be found here!
www.sneakpeektoys.com

Sifo-Dyas

  • (A+ Trader)
  • Empire
  • Sith Lord
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1314
  • Still Needs More Cowbell!
    • View Profile
    • VIEW MY HAVES/WANTS LIST...
Re: Snowtroopers.ca - Integrity issues?
« Reply #14 on: August 14, 2007, 03:09:29 PM »

Yes, good post, Rad74. Very resolution focused as opposed to the ellusive and somewhat combative input we have been getting (my opinion.)

I just want to clarify that the fact that the original deal was (eventually) completed is not at all relevant.
I too have dealt with the member who had neg. feedback left and everything went well.
But Arizona felt that his negative experience warranted noting for the benefit of other members. I remember his post well and in it he said that "the time may come when I feel it is appropriate to remove this thread" thereby reserving the right to have it left up EVEN if the deal eventually was completed.
If I was going to do a deal with a member that had in the past taken weeks longer than stated to send his end of the deal and had failed to respond to multiple emails about the issue, I'd want to know about it and this is why Arizona wanted the post left up. I'm sure every member here would like to have that info about a prospective trading partner.
 The fact that a Mod would delete the negative feedback of a member who he calls a personal friend is at best a conflict of interest that gives the appearance of impropriety and at worst is a gross abuse of Mod powers. Either way it negatively affects member's confidence in the usefulness of the feedback system.
Let's hope this site has seen the last of that kind of ugliness. Thanks for making a definitive statement in the best interest of the board.

For the record, I have no problem with the editing of posts that violate the site's terms of use or code of conduct. Some ppl have stated that they think NOTHING should ever be edited or deleted but this is not that kind of site and I appreciate that. There are other sites to go to for unmoderated, uncensored freedom of speech. They're usually full of the type of mayhem that mistersql talked about, which I like, but I understand that here is not the right place for that.
Logged
View My HAVES/WANTS LIST[/color]           View FEEDBACK

"If We Can't Laugh At The Dead, We Have No Business Killing People. "
Pages: [1] 2 3   Go Up
 

Recent

Links

   













Members
  • Total Members: 2022
  • Latest: MaxRebo
Stats
  • Total Posts: 169117
  • Total Topics: 14344
  • Online Today: 69
  • Online Ever: 406
  • (March 18, 2008, 03:52:35 PM)
Users Online
Users: 1
Guests: 65
Total: 66

Page created in 0.16 seconds with 38 queries.