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Author Topic: STAR WARS: EPISODE VIII - THE LAST JEDI  (Read 4685 times)

Darth Vicious

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STAR WARS: EPISODE VIII - THE LAST JEDI
« on: January 23, 2017, 10:28:56 PM »



It's official! Star Wars Episode VIII is titled "The Last Jedi".

I love the title, even if I won't be able to refer to Return of the Jedi as 'Jedi' quickly any more.

Bring on December!!
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jjreason

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Re: STAR WARS: EPISODE VIII - THE LAST JEDI
« Reply #1 on: January 23, 2017, 11:37:38 PM »

Very exciting! Now, is "Jedi" singular or plural???!!!???
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napseeker

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Re: STAR WARS: EPISODE VIII - THE LAST JEDI
« Reply #2 on: January 24, 2017, 02:50:23 AM »

Singular. The french version of the title apparently used the singular form of Jedi... (which makes sense, Rey is not yet a Jedi and Luke's the only one supposedly left after the massacre).

I do wish studios would STOP using "The Last XXX" though, it's a lazy lazy way to name a movie. Just think of how many "The Last (whatever)" titles you've heard of over time e.g. The Last Samurai, The Last Ship, The Last of the Mohicans, The Last Assassin, The Last Man on Earth, The Last of Us, The Last Unicorn, The Last Starfighter, The Last Emperor, The Last Airbender, The Last Action Hero...

It just doesn't have any weight to it any more after so much overuse.

I think SlothFromHoth over at JTA had the best response to the ST era titles:

Quote
Episode 8: The Last Jedi
Episode 9: There are more Jedi now
Episode 10: Wait, they all died again.
Episode 11: Hey wait a minute, I see some more Jedi
Episode 12: Nope never mind, they're dead again.
Episode 13: The Force Awakens Again
« Last Edit: January 24, 2017, 02:53:27 AM by napseeker »
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Re: STAR WARS: EPISODE VIII - THE LAST JEDI
« Reply #3 on: January 24, 2017, 07:26:31 AM »

I'm kind of disappointed with this title.  I would have expected Jedi or Sith to appear in the final (episode 9) title to keep with the continuity of the previous films.  Without knowing what the film is about, something like "The First Order Rises" or something else ominous would have made sense for the second in a trilogy of SW films.
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sinkie

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Re: STAR WARS: EPISODE VIII - THE LAST JEDI
« Reply #4 on: January 24, 2017, 08:52:10 AM »

I have some theories about the meaning of the title.

The most extreme is that we find out Kylo has a plan to eliminate any sort of strong Force users from the galaxy...the Jedi, the Sith and eventually himself included. He's playing the long game, wants to get close to Snoke and be able to take him down (even going so far as to mask his deceit by killing his own father) and he legitimately find Luke and kill him too because he wants to finish what Anakin/Vader started which was to end it all...both Jedi and Sith and he probably believes the Skywalker blood line is a big part of the problem. That's one theory I entertain...

The most banal theory is that Luke is claiming to be the last Jedi because he can't seem to get it right, thinks that he is doomed to fail again and again and refuses to train anymore Jedi such that he will be the last Jedi and die with that line...perhaps until convinced by Rey. So he just needs "hope" again. Typical but possible.

The in-between theory might be that Luke doesn't get to train or completely train Rey before dying so "technically" there are no more Jedi and it looks hopeless...but Rey will still find some way of basically becoming something like a Jedi by the end of the 3rd film anyway (and realize it has more to do with intent and spirit than it does dogma and doctrine) and save the day.

I also think perhaps Disney knows they can't keep milking the entire Jedi vs. Dark siders thing without it getting pretty repetitive so perhaps they want to take the franchise down a different road for a time and have the Jedi order revived several films on from now so that not every film has a villain obsessed with finding the Jedi and destroying them all, once and for all...mwahahahahaha!

JediPatrick

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Re: STAR WARS: EPISODE VIII - THE LAST JEDI
« Reply #5 on: January 24, 2017, 11:36:10 AM »

This is a great title. Like all titles of the Star Wars episodes so far. I like it. And it gives some hints about the storyline without sharing too much. The Last Jedi is Luke. In my mind there's no question about it. He was the Last Jedi in ROTJ, he again became the last one in E7 and still will be in E8. Will he die? Maybe. Maybe not. The title does not talk about the destiny of the Last Jedi, nor does it tells how fate will be decided. It simply tells that this character, "The Last Jedi", will have a prominent role in this new chapter. That he will be the center of interest. And this is what we were expecting. This is what JJA told us when he first embarked in this new saga, telling what happened to Luke, what he has become, what he has in mind and how things changed for him past the events of ROTJ.

So I like the title. Despite what some may think, that it'snot original enough, that they could have find something better, that it was an easy poorly imaginative shot, I like it.

Yet, I've seen so many critics and harsh comments on this title on various websites (no here), Facebook and Instagram that it almost ruins the moment and the fun. And these comments goes on about E7, Disney, the SW universe being ruined anyway so they can ruin it furthermore with a poor title. How can people call themselves as hardcore SW fans if the only movies they like date back more than 40 years ago? When the only movie they like was the 1977 SW movie, and maybe also ESB in 1980? There's been so much stuff released since then. We're at the 8th official movie installment. That's more than any franchise have produced so far, except James Bond I think. Only liking the original SW movie, or maybe only also ESB and perhaps ROTJ (so basically only the OT but minus the Ewoks of course) makes it for not more than 30% of all the big screen material released. So when people say they are SW fans but bitch about the prequels, E7 and Rogue One, I don't get it...

I'm at the same point as a year ago, after viewing E7 and reading so much negativity everywhere. So tired of complaints and critics made by fans over SW. Honestly, fans are supposed to be the among the people that have fun watching these movies, but it seems they are the most overly-critical persons that watch these movies. In fact, I've discussed SW with many people in the past few years and the only persons that complain about SW are either those who view SW as a simple merchandising scheme (I can certainly appreciate their arguments and views), or the fans themselves. Most people I talk with actually that kinda like and enjoy the Star Wars are non-collectors and non-SW fans. These people view this SW phenomenon for what it is: a series of movies that are meant for entertainment. Not with a collector point of view, nor as an overly-critical audience. They just enjoyed these movies like they would with any scifi movie. But fans seem to have forgotten this. It's sad. Really...  :-\

Anyway... sorry for digressing. My state of mind is maybe not in top shape. I really like the title they gave E8. It conveys so much. I'm just eager to watch the new fans (like my kids) discover Luke Skywalker, the hero the vintage-era SW fans like myself had in their childhood. And I can't wait to see what old-Luke has become. It's certainly a thrill to live to see our childhood heroes finally grow up and gain a little more substance than what we were given back then... :)
« Last Edit: January 24, 2017, 11:40:11 AM by JediPatrick »
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sinkie

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Re: STAR WARS: EPISODE VIII - THE LAST JEDI
« Reply #6 on: January 24, 2017, 12:08:48 PM »

Yeah, I'm totally good with the title. I don't think there is any reason to complain. I mean it's not like its called "SW 8 The Muppets Take Coruscant!" It's a title that indicates something about the film while not giving it away. I'm sure if in 1980 the Empire Strikes Back! had been a flop people would have pointed to the title and said, yeah with a title like that what could you expect! But see? The title DID NOT make or break that film. The film itself did...and it MADE it and now ESB sounds like a fantastic title! Personally I wasn't crazy about Ep 1 or 2's titles but I did not think it was necessarily any indication of what to expect from the film (I read it as me perhaps being jaded and older now and not as ready to accept the slightly hokey/hommage type titles Lucas was choosing)...sure now in retrospect it feels like all a part of what I don't like. But it isn't actually the title...I had high hopes that AOTC would get it right! Now that title fills me with loathing...but again it's because of my loathing of the film itself! If it had suited my tastes? I'd probably love the title now. I just don't think getting worked up about a title unless it is completely OFF BASE makes any sense at this point. And how can we suggest a better title really when we don't know what the film is about!

JediPatrick

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Re: STAR WARS: EPISODE VIII - THE LAST JEDI
« Reply #7 on: January 24, 2017, 03:49:13 PM »

I just don't think getting worked up about a title unless it is completely OFF BASE makes any sense at this point. And how can we suggest a better title really when we don't know what the film is about!

Yep, agreed. It's like some people plainly forget that they are not producing nor directing these movies. They have no competencies whatsoever in film making and yet some are overly critical about all these movies. I mean, if I start arguing about a movie title and let it destroy my appetite and pleasure to see new SW movies that are offered to me year after year, then maybe I should follow the wise words Obi-Wan kindly "suggested" to one drug-dealing looser on Coruscant: "I want to go home and rethink my life". LOL :P
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- "Les enfants de Dune"/"Children of Dune"

sinkie

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Re: STAR WARS: EPISODE VIII - THE LAST JEDI
« Reply #8 on: January 24, 2017, 06:19:29 PM »

My initial response upon hearing it was actually more along the lines of "Finally we get the "Last Jedi" film!" Sort of felt like a title that was already out there waiting to be attached to a SW film that involved the Skywalkers...it just suits the franchise IMO. I mean "Return of the Jedi" is pretty much just as "on the nose" as this one seems.

Darth Vicious

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Re: STAR WARS: EPISODE VIII - THE LAST JEDI
« Reply #9 on: January 24, 2017, 09:24:03 PM »

I remember people being perplexed because "The Empire Strikes Back" wasn't called "Star Wars II", BEFORE Star Wars got relabelled as 'Episode IV: A New Hope'.

Folks didn't care for the titles The Phantom Menace or Attack of The Clones before even seeing them. And yes, I realize that can be opened to argument for those that look less favourably at the prequels. Save it.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2017, 09:59:37 PM by Darth Vicious »
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napseeker

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Re: STAR WARS: EPISODE VIII - THE LAST JEDI
« Reply #10 on: January 31, 2017, 04:55:23 AM »


Yep, agreed. It's like some people plainly forget that they are not producing nor directing these movies. They have no competencies whatsoever in film making and yet some are overly critical about all these movies. I mean, if I start arguing about a movie title and let it destroy my appetite and pleasure to see new SW movies that are offered to me year after year, then maybe I should follow the wise words Obi-Wan kindly "suggested" to one drug-dealing looser on Coruscant: "I want to go home and rethink my life". LOL :P

Okay I'm going to take issue with the above because I feel that this is not a correct viewpoint to take on those people who are critical (overly critical) about SW or any other film property. It should never matter whether the person being critical of a film is a producer or director or even have a background in filmmaking (although that partly depends on WHAT they are criticizing; if it's a technical issue related to the film they should have a certain technical background to know what they are talking about e.g. choice of film stock, a particular use of CGI, musical composition, etc).

What I find is that most of the time, they are being critical of the story, or yes, maybe the choice of a title (The Last Jedi still seems like a lazy choice to me btw :) ) or perhaps the choice of music used, but we're talking about a subjective aspect of the film that doesn't require any "competencies" per se.  There is no singular "right" opinion; I personally think The Force Awakens is the 2nd-worst film in the franchise and it is the only film out of all the SW films that I've grown to genuinely hate, but I don't crank on those who sing its praises and defend it almost over-zealously to the point of blind faith. They are entitled to their opinion regardless of whether they are writers or construction workers or bank tellers and entitled to advocate for as long as they wish (assuming that they exercise the courtesy to let others have their own contrarian views too).

It goes both ways: if someone goes all-negative on a film, they will draw out those who are super-positive on the same film and don't want to hear negativity about something they enjoyed. That only makes those critical about it defend their position (at which point they may be accused of being overly negative but IMO they are simply reiterating their POV) and then other fans get drawn in to defend it more, and so on and so on.  There are definitely fans on both sides of the fence who let themselves get too wrapped up in the arguing (and to be sure, there's no convincing the other side that they are wrong no matter how long it rages) but BOTH critics and defenders are likely to be lacking in those so-called competencies to prove why their criticisms or defences are the definitive correct viewpoint.  It shouldn't be used as a mark against them.

Whether people realize it or not, we treat SW like a religion moreso than a simple piece of ongoing entertainment. It has a mythology, it has Biblical-level storytelling and moral lessons to teach, religious icons to acquire and treasure (action figures), it has supernatural qualities and mysticism, great heroes and villains, etc.  With real religions, we see scholars argue and criticize and even erupt into real violence all the time, and with SW it really isn't any different - it is as deep a part of our culture as any religion is and prone to the same degree of religious in-fighting as to what is the "right" way to do something.  There are those EU fans who refuse to accept TFA as canon and still want a continuation of the old EU, is that any different from the divide between say the Shiites and the Sunnis (other than the fact that so far, neither EU groups are ready to kill each other over it. Yet! :) )


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sinkie

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Re: STAR WARS: EPISODE VIII - THE LAST JEDI
« Reply #11 on: January 31, 2017, 09:49:27 AM »

Good points! Yeah, I've never bought the "you're not a film maker so why do you get to criticize?" argument either. First, some could just plain have a good idea that may actually be better than someone else just on instinct! The whole point of making works for an audience is to see if you convince them. If they could not be judgmental or critical then everything should just be "good" to them or go over their heads. We expect people to like/dislike something and have an opinion on it. They are free to factor in how it was made if they want. It need not change their opinion of whether it is good or not. They can appreciate the work that went into it. They can wonder if enough work went into it. They can even wonder if the right people were involved and they can even feel like an opportunity was squandered, mishandled or failed even with the best intentions...like the PT for me. I think disrespectful, loud-mouths have helped make it hard to stomach criticism. But this is an internet thing...it has given quite the platform to a lot of people with anti-social opinions and views who want to be heard, who want to inflate their sense of self. I honestly believe they are the minority but they have a drive to be out there so they seem to omni-present...and it can lead to more dangerous consequences than crapping on someone else's entertainment! Ladies and Gentlemen...I give you the Ultra-Right!  :(

I like the religion analogy. I think  what it comes down to for me is that even if it is "like a religion" to some extent we always have to be able to take a step back and say, yeah but these are still just movies, just stories, why should it matter so much if I like it and you don't (not you Napseeker in particular, I'm speaking about the theoretical "you" on the other side of any debate)? Someone comes to discuss things for some reason, probably because they  are passionate about some things that I am too (like say the films that started it all!) and a little "wishing things had turned out differently" is to be expected. I know I can imagine what I think would have been much better prequels (again, at least for me. And I could be wrong! They may just feel really awesome in my own head!)

The fact that this is just a growing set of stories set in the same universe as the films that were, in all likelihood "lighting in a bottle", means that some are either going to work for you, or won't. And if years of hating on the PT has taught me anything I think it is that sometimes just accepting what is (even if that means you don't watch it, don't include it in your overall picture of the SW story that you enjoy) is probably healthier. Live and let live...but by no means go to the opposite extreme and enslave yourself to something based on the fact that it is attached even officially to what you like about something. Though...I can see some getting attached by its "official-ity" because that's their "thing"....and though it's not my thing, it may be the way someone gets pleasure, gets to feel like they are participating in something. So...

TFA made me realize PERSONALLY that I think what I enjoyed about SW was the more straightforward storytelling with broad stroke human drama that I can get without overthinking it. I also enjoy that it borrowed from current television trends of leaving several dangling plot lines in order to produce more product (i.e. film, tv, books) down the road to resolve these unanswered questions (yes all franchises do this but TFA did it more so...who is Snoke, Rey's parents, what's up with Luke, the Knights of Ren etc etc etc). The OT wasn't so "dangly" IMO. By the end of ANH we pretty much didn't have many questions about any of the primary plot lines! We were curious about what Vader and Stormtroopers looked like under their armour, maybe some of us wondered who the Emperor was (I know I did not care, figured he was a career politician type in my own kid-way!) and the only burning question was "what's next!?!" But I feel that even though it dangles more, none of TFAs questions are so convoluted yet that I feel they will have me scratching my head (the way many of the machinations of the PT did).

So, though I could try to argue that objectively this kind of straight forward drama driven by cool battles, aliens, etc. is what SW always was and that it seems obvious to me that anyone who enjoyed the OT should like TFA at the same time I recognize that a) people may not have liked SW for the reasons I think they did and/or b) it changed for them over time which is legitimate and/or c) they want something new, perhaps even quite radically different even if placed side by side the OT and/or d) they wish that it was exactly the same right down to the type of film stock used, complete lack of CGI and nothing but mid-seventies to mid-eighties haircuts! :)

The ONLY issue I take with what you wrote is that it does seem you are assuming those who like/defend it passionately are doing so like zealots...or at least that some do. This may be the case for a very small minority, or perhaps non-existent. The apparent fanatics may just actually really really really like it and articulate their reasons why poorly or just want to have a completely emotional response that need not be backed up by any argumentation.

People are free to criticize a title with little or nothing to go on. Saying it is too similar to other titles is a legitimate criticism in that it is unarguably true. It is similar. The value judgment based on little other than personal tolerance for the similarity though is the word "too". This changes the statement from one of fact to one of value judgment. The response is pretty much, well so what if it is similar? Does this mean the film will be garbage? If it is garbage, was it because of the title? No, not even if you point to the title as a symptom of laziness overall. The title did not make it lazy, the lazy writing/input of all those with the power to have input did so. But at this point the title is meaningless in terms of the what the quality of the story itself will be. Like I said Return of...is not underused either (though I haven't the time to check and see chronologically where ROTJ fits in to the use of it in story titling history!) Most SW titles are in some sense aping story titling conventions (especially from old serialized movies). The Last Jedi to me seems like an appropriate aping. Sure if it had been called something more original like...you know what? I work in TV and cinema and NOTHING more original is coming to me at the moment! Almost everything has been used! At least in the sense of "Fall of..." "Rise of...", The X of (something)"....it is hard to imagine a completely original title without it perhaps seeming ridiculous! Rey's Big Day Out? (kidding) That might be part of Disney Corp/Lucasfilm's motives here "keep it simple stupid" and let the audience know you're not going to throw them a curveball. When i think of Disney I don't think of "taking chances"...often it is safe or smart small-not-radical newness. Anyway, I personally like the title, I can see why some don't, but I'm not going to say that the title has me feeling that I can guess at the quality of what will come with it. I'm hopeful more based on my enjoyment of TFA and RO so far!
« Last Edit: January 31, 2017, 01:20:44 PM by sinkie »
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Re: STAR WARS: EPISODE VIII - THE LAST JEDI
« Reply #12 on: January 31, 2017, 08:04:25 PM »

Is it possible this really is not the title?   
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sinkie

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Re: STAR WARS: EPISODE VIII - THE LAST JEDI
« Reply #13 on: January 31, 2017, 09:20:13 PM »

This was an official release but I guess you never know!

However, just seeing your one line post sitting there so quaintly after Napseeker and my essays makes me hope it isn't! :)

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Re: STAR WARS: EPISODE VIII - THE LAST JEDI
« Reply #14 on: February 17, 2017, 10:36:02 AM »

I'm fairly sure it's got to be the official title, they're using it in multiple languages already AND, there's now confirmation that "the last jedi" is indeed plural, likely referring to both Rey and Luke (and maybe any other students that could've lived or been trained since his disappearance?).  Evidence is here:

http://io9.gizmodo.com/star-wars-the-last-jedi-is-totally-plural-if-youre-bi-1792473880

p.s. Sinkie: and I thought I wrote long postings ;)

EDIT: and the new canon novel disproves some of the crazier theories about Jar-Jar being an evil mastermind... the fate of Jar-Jar Binks post-RotJ!

http://io9.gizmodo.com/the-new-star-wars-aftermath-novel-reveals-the-pitiful-1792481018

« Last Edit: February 17, 2017, 12:41:48 PM by napseeker »
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