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Author Topic: STAR WARS: EPISODE VIII - THE LAST JEDI  (Read 4529 times)

napseeker

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Re: STAR WARS: EPISODE VIII - THE LAST JEDI
« Reply #75 on: December 17, 2017, 03:20:08 AM »

Just one more comment before I head off to watch it again....

Episode IX doesn't have to directly follow TLJ time wise.  I think it will be set several years later.  They could even start with Leia's funeral.

I personally was never against the idea of putting in a CGI Leia for eps9, so long as they spend a huge amount of time to make it look real; but if they aren't going that route (which is what Kathleen Kennedy confirmed) then yeah, start eps9 many, many years later and with Leia's funeral. It will mark the full transition to the next generation where they carry the story almost completely (but with obvious cameos by Force Luke, R2, Chewie, 3PO...)

It was always a huge mistake to end TFA with a cliffhanger that required eps8 to pick up immediately from eps7. SW films have always built in some passage of time between each film so that you can have EU stories that chronicle what happened during this period... we could've had old Luke and old Han go on some adventures between 7 and 8 for example... for 8 to 9, allowing for years to pass between the two films will at least restore the proper way that breaks between films should've been handled. We can have more adventures of old Leia trying to build the new rebellion until her funeral at the open of eps9.

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napseeker

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Re: STAR WARS: EPISODE VIII - THE LAST JEDI
« Reply #76 on: December 17, 2017, 03:36:14 AM »

It is fun to see how different our tastes can be, though - we are all huge Star Wars fans, but the same scene can be loved or hated - many have commented on Luke and Yoda's scene being their favourite (it was one of mine, except for the burning of the tree), while others (Cmdr Bacara, for example) found it really annoying. And then there's Napseeker, who seems to have the complete opposite view from JJ on just about everything! It's so hard to please us fans! :scared0008:

I exist to be the anti-matter to JJreason's hopes and dreams :)

But seriously, I find it hilarious that the apparent majority of fans dislike TLJ whereas I am overjoyed by what I got.  I read some of their comments about why they didn't like TLJ in various talkbacks across the net and my first reaction was "Ah, so now you guys know how I feel about TFA..."   My friend and I once got into a polite argument about why he loved TFA and why I hated it; he acknowledged the various flaws about TFA that I pointed out but in the end, said that it reminded him of Star Wars, of being in the SW universe again (after the failure of the prequels to capture that feeling) and because of that he could overlook the flaws and rate the film as enjoyable. 

That is exactly the same for me for TLJ: there are flaws about TLJ (the Canto Bight scenes and Finn's entire arc bordered on pointless and are easily the dullest moments of the film... DJ and Holdo and Paige all turned out to be smaller roles than anyone thought, but I did like that DJ turned out to be the anti-Lando and that his betrayal really devastated the Resistance forces). But this film did capture that feeling of being in the SW universe again, and I had no issues with the porg humor or Luke drinking blue milk, or how Luke died (I dreaded a JJAbrams-type lazy homage where he might just stand there and let Kylo swing at him, and evaporate into a ghost... ugh, you know that's what he would've done...).   

I LOVED that Leia finally got to use the Force at last, that spacewalk didn't come across as bad or awkward at all!  She was about to die, she either found the Force within her (in kind of an "adrenaline rush" that happens when you are in mortal danger) or it found her, and made it to safety.  Those who wished that she had died then and there, I say no way!  We already missed out on a Luke and Han reunion in TFA, were we really going to lose out on a Luke and Leia reunion too?  No EFFING way. I'm glad they kept it as is - that moment when they are reunited in person (sort of) was really needed, and if Luke was going to sacrifice himself for anyone, it'd be to protect Leia and her rebellion. He died a hero (and let's not forget, he humiliated the new Supreme Leader in front of all his forces!  Nice!)
« Last Edit: December 17, 2017, 03:39:09 AM by napseeker »
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napseeker

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Re: STAR WARS: EPISODE VIII - THE LAST JEDI
« Reply #77 on: December 17, 2017, 03:47:50 AM »

If this movie was *really* daring, take all of Vice Admiral Holdo's lines, and give them to a still living Admiral Ackbar. Everything from stunning the group to sacrificing himself.

Movie is so much better IMHO if Ackbar doesn't just die off-screen.  Sorry Laura Dern, you were cute but the wrong choice by a mile.

I thought the same thing - that Ackbar could've been used in place of Holdo. However I do think there was a reason why they did not: the voice actor for Ackbar passed away not that long after TFA.  I suppose they could've used the actor who did Admiral Raddus in R1 (the voice actually did seem pretty close...) but perhaps it was decided not to rankle fans by momentarily turning Ackbar into an antagonistic figure (and then killing him off).

The realization of Ackbar being among the dead/sucked out into space, didn't hit home for me until one of the characters said that all of the Resistance leadership had been killed in the bombing (I had just assumed Ackbar was in the bathroom at the time, far from the bridge). I mumbled to myself, "But... but, Hasbro just put out a pricey 6" 2-pack with Ackbar in it...!!!! He can't be dead!"  So RIP Ackbar and Luke.  One of you gets to come back as a ghost in the next film, the other one will get a MonCalamari cruiser named after them in eps9...
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cash_fan

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Re: STAR WARS: EPISODE VIII - THE LAST JEDI
« Reply #78 on: December 17, 2017, 04:19:18 AM »

  We didn't know who the Emperor was in ESB, just that he was the big bad leader.  Then he gets offed in ROTJ and we still didn't know anything about him.  Why is this a big deal now?? 

For me, I think it's irksome because up to know, the story we've been told is that there's a Light side and Dark side of the Force.  Trained Light side users are Jedi.  Dark side users are Sith.  There are only two Sith.  (Yes, I think it's tough to believe only 2 Sith can be Dark side users, but that's the world the movies showed me.)

They both die in Episode 6. 


The first time we hear the word Sith spoken on screen is in TPM.  Not in the OT.

Agreed. 


Regarding the Emperor in the OT, I'm fairly sure he's mentioned on the blockade runner.  An officer is concerned news about Leia's capture getting out to the senate could create sympathy for the rebellion and Vader basically says to not worry as the Emperor is going to get rid of the senate. 

I'll have to watch again to hear exactly what's said, but fairly sure he's mentioned in 4, then, of course, shown (via hologram in 5), and then we meet him in 6.

Flash forward to TFA, we're dropped into a story where, like ANH, there's a battle going on.  The problem for me is I've seen the previous chapter and there's no hint of the Empire surviving. The Rebels won.  Statues were toppled.  Fireworks enjoyed.  Yet this new bad guy army dresses very much like the Empire, flies ships almost exactly like them, and talks (Kylo Ren at least) about them (well, about one of them any way).  How?  Why?

E1-3 explain how we got to the Emperor in E4.  E4-6 do not explain how we got to the Supreme Leader in E7.

If the First Order looked nothing like the Empire, I could buy into them being an entirely new villain. (A force from beyond the Outer Rim maybe.)  The Empire is dead and they (like classic villains) want to rule the universe so they take hold of an opportunity to do so.  In that case, like the Empire in 4-6, I'm not curious why they have a leader.  They should have a leader (or leadership council).  And I'm not in need of a leader backstory as he's a bad guy doing what a lot of standard villains do - looking to rule everything.   

Thing is the FO is basically a carbon copy of the Empire.  Why? 

The FO is aware of the Empire.

Why has he copied the Empire? 
   
So, ya, I want to know more about the origins of the FO and it's leader. 

In TLJ, we're told they buy their weapons.  How do they afford to do that?  Where's Snoke getting all this cash from that he can build an army by himself to rival any threat from the entire republic? 

So, ya, in short, for me, because of where Snoke first appears in the over all story, I find the amount of info given about him so far to be insufficient.

I'm not gonna quote your whole post because it's as long as a Tom Clancy novel.  I will answer some of it though. 

It's actually Tarkin that mentions the Emperor first.  He tells the Death Star round table that the Emperor has dissolved the council (Senate). I can't remember it being mentioned on the Runner.  But I'm wrong a lot, just ask my wife (or her mother).

My point was, we didn't get the Emperors back story for 15 years, and no one was asking these questions. 

OK, so here is what we know about the First Order.  They are what was left over from the Empire.  After the Rebellion finally won and formed the New Republic - the remnants of the Empire fled to the Unknown Regions.  As the years went by, The New Republic began to divide into two parties, the Centrists (they believed in a strong singular leader - like Palpatine) and the Populists (more of a democratic theology).  Many of the Centrists worlds were colluding and funneling money into the First Order.  This allowed them to rise to power.  While it has not yet been confirmed, it is believed that Supreme Leader Snoke is from the Unknown Regions.   

If you want to dive into more details, you would need to read the Aftermath trilogy and Bloodline.  That's the great thing about the Star Wars universe now.  It's all synced together across all mediums. 
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Re: STAR WARS: EPISODE VIII - THE LAST JEDI
« Reply #79 on: December 17, 2017, 04:21:03 AM »

Upon second viewing I have to confirm that the milk from the Sea Cow was green, not blue. 
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ambasah

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Re: STAR WARS: EPISODE VIII - THE LAST JEDI
« Reply #80 on: December 17, 2017, 10:41:24 AM »

I saw this yesterday with the family.

best part: the screen and theatre are dead silent as the last rebel ship does the "suicide light-speed thing" to save everyone...and in that silence, my 5 year old son shouts out "BOOM!", followed by some chuckles from the audience. 

and that is what it is about for me. being able to share my love of star wars with my kids.

Having said that, I liked the movie but it had a lot of "wtf?" moments:

yoda decides to show up NOW!?!
luke's saber was broken into 2 pieces...but I guess Kylo thought he had a new one for their "battle"?
why not just tell Poe the plan? that hole mutiny thing was dumb.
almost no screen time for R2!
all-powerful snoke can't "feel" what kylo is doing ?...or the fact that the saber is moving?
the Maz thing was dumb.
phasma under-utilized again and a cheap death.
rey almost instantly being able to do all those "force" things...with no logical explanation. How long did it take the greatest jedi of all time (Luke) to do half of what she was capable of?

my biggest gripe is what happened to Luke. My greatest childhood hero reduced to an old fart. His "redemption" was far from that in my view. and the way he died? boooo!

glad to have more star wars, but man...I was hoping for so much more.
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sinkie

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Re: STAR WARS: EPISODE VIII - THE LAST JEDI
« Reply #81 on: December 17, 2017, 11:21:50 AM »

Amabasah I think I felt pretty much the same way about those points on my first viewing and now, on the second, I'm good with almost all of them.

Yoda seemed so stupid to me, but upon a second viewing, it felt really like the Yoda of ESB, the Yoda that could be Zen mastery about the way he taught and the idea that Luke's failure became what would teach him...brilliant. The fact he kept silent for so long (or at least we assume he did) may also have been a part of the lesson.

Has there been a close up of the saber Luke used on Crait? Was it actually the same style as the one that broke? I'd be surprised if it was but perhaps it was but I could see Kylo's rage not letting him question it in the heat of the moment.

Poe is a pilot, he has been demoted, Holdo is actually smarter than he is and knows what she needs to do to see the plan through and not give into his impulsive "let me at 'em" attitude. Poe learns his lesson when he breaks off from the final fight. Plus, the plan was far from rock solid. If there was even the remotest chance of a traitor in their midst or any monitoring or the chance that hot shot Poe might try to speed up the plan and expose it to the FO...she was in command, she was the one responsible for giving the plan every chance it needed. And Leia was also in the know I believe. She was showing true military discipline by not panicking and spewing the plan out for every pilot-to-janitor to hear IMO.

R2's almost non-presence was not the best but in some ways it was enough. And obviously they are trying to get BB-8 to be the new droid for these characters.

Snoke's ego got in his way, his overconfidence. Plus I think it hints at Kylo's own power, his ability to use that Skywalker "magic" to outwit his enemies. It is somewhat comparable to Palpatine not feeling Vader's change of heart...he was so sure of himself that he let his guard down. I will admit it could have been handled better but I'm quite fine with it now.

Maz was ok, but probably along with much of Canto Bight, the weakest for me even upon a second viewing. I had to run to the washroom with my  youngest right before Finn got zapped by Rose and missed the lead into that scene. Who was it that knew to contact her? Finn I hope! Because I was under the impression it was Poe. Did we ever know that Poe knew (of) her?

I'm pretty sure Phasma is dead but there is always the chance she survives once again perhaps badly burned? But I think she served her purpose of being a thorn in the side for Finn and he ended her. She gets about as much of a send off as Fett did really.

Rey awoke to the Force in a different way than Luke did. Luke seemed to be full of self doubt whereas Rey seemed to connect with it in the heat of the moment in TFA and never lost that connection. She only wanted more guidance. Luke was never set up to be that "raw untamed power" source like both Kylo and Rey seem to be. And Rey seems very open to just "going there" as Luke pointed out when she went straight to the dark with no hesitation. My gut says she's just different than Luke, less mental hang ups.

And on a second viewing...I absolutely love where they took Luke. I mean honestly, I think we've all reshaped Luke over the years into something he never was. Luke was barely a Jedi before he partied on Endor. He basically  said he would not fight and took a passive stand against the Emperor. Until he freaked out, almost went dark and then...once again threw down his laser sword. His dad saved him based on Luke's decision to not go dark to defeat the dark side itself and the example he showed for his dad was more powerful than any use of the Force. After the end of ROTJ? The EU gave us stuff but we know all of that is no longer canon. So Luke then going on to try to teach and then fail and then go into a spiral is human and believable to me. The fact though that even as he cut himself off from the Force (is this also why Yoda could not appear perhaps?) and tried to convince himself that the Jedi needed to end he still sought to understand the Force in a larger way shows that his character was still trying to find the right way through his funk! It was as if he was going through a prolonged inner conflict that Rey's arrival helped resolve...leading Yoda to appear to give him the final push towards learning his lesson.

And my god! That final scene echoing Luke's young self looking to the stars, to the suns and dreaming to come full circle to see him realizing that his youthful self was probably, in its own clumsy way, pushing him to find the good path was so incredibly moving (on a second viewing) I had tears...I admit it...I had tears.

Though its a detail I'm wondering if we're going to get all kinds of new ship designs next film since, as far as we know, the Resistance has been whittled down to what? 40 people and the Falcon? No more x-wings? Or will they find another abandoned Rebel outpost with that same tech? Or old (but newly designed by Disney) tech like the skimmers?

« Last Edit: December 17, 2017, 11:27:06 AM by sinkie »
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Re: STAR WARS: EPISODE VIII - THE LAST JEDI
« Reply #82 on: December 17, 2017, 01:46:28 PM »

It gets better upon the 2nd viewing. 

Rey is the one that says her parents are nobodies.  Not Kylo.

Luke's final scene is way more powerful the 2nd time around.

For some reason when Finn says "Oh, they hate that ship", it makes me laugh out loud. 

If Phasma is JJ's baby, he may bring her back for IX. 

The porgs are not overdone, and they are great for the kids (and moms).

The Canto Bight scene is still, meh.  I think it goes back to what JJ said about Maz's Castle, you gotta have a cantina scene in Star Wars.  And this was RJ's way of trying to think out of the box. 
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bob

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Re: STAR WARS: EPISODE VIII - THE LAST JEDI
« Reply #83 on: December 17, 2017, 03:03:07 PM »

the Casino planet thing felt kinda prequally to me. the way the cars and stuff in the casino look feels like a nod to the prequels, i didnt mind cause everyone wants to mostly avoid the prequels it seems. the creature things felt like filler. its not bad but i suppose that whole part was filler for the most part.

 The acting is pretty good in this. Adam Driver delivers again and so did Daisy Ridley. Mark Hamill was good too but sometimes i felt liike he was overdoing it a little. i will go see it again in theatres for sure.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2017, 03:05:04 PM by bob »
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jjreason

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Re: STAR WARS: EPISODE VIII - THE LAST JEDI
« Reply #84 on: December 17, 2017, 04:15:24 PM »

Second viewing complete & I 100 percent agree that it gets better. There are certain music albums that feel a bit weird to start but then grow on you in a big way, this movie has that potential. It felt like less time was wasted than I initially though, and I thought Poe & Finn's stories made more sense the second time - I was obviously focusing too hard on the Luke/Rey/Kylo the stuff the first time around & wanted them to hurry up & get back to that.

The space battles are absurdly good. The Crait battle is fine, but, aping  Hoth is a tough one to sell to an old fan like me. The battering ram wasn't enough of something new for it to feel like an homage, but new at the same time (btw, weird they would choose to have the walkers going left to right this time, instead of the traditional right to left). 

That being said, I'm still glad I was 100 percent happy with where they took Luke's story the first time around, I wouldn't want to be in a position where I was trying to justify things to myself.

EDITED: Bob, that's a very astute observation. The Casino DID feel like the prequels - particularly the Opera House from ROTS - to me. Excellent.
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brianakarobin

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Re: STAR WARS: EPISODE VIII - THE LAST JEDI
« Reply #85 on: December 17, 2017, 06:41:50 PM »

I am in the same camp of really liking this on the second viewing. I didn't hate it on the first viewing, but I was just conflicted, especially with the Luke story, but various other things as per my earlier posts.

While there are still minor issues for me, I do really like the movie overall. I think it is a worthy addition to the series.

As Cashfan said, you can find out about the First Order from the books. Basically, the empire collapsed a while after ROTJ, but part of that was self-induced based on a plan put in motion by the emperor, should he die. Only a select group of the leadership were kept and went off to the unknown regions to create the First Order. While I can understand the comments about wanting to know more, I disagree that all of this should be in the films. We all loved the OT precisely because it didn't get bogged down with all of this kind of crap. The PT tried to explain every detail of the political climate, who Palpatine was, how he rose to power, etc. and we found it boring. I think they have it right this time - people can follow the movie and enjoy it as is, but if you really have an interest in finding out more, read the books.

As for the concerns about it's score on Rotten Tomatoes and that critics like it an audiences don't, I would simply point to the fact that the opening weekend is the second largest of all-time (after only TFA), and this likely will earn more at the domestic box office than any other movie besides TFA, likely in the range of $800 million (along with a billion or so worldwide). I think Disney will be quite pleased with the combination of great scores from critics and close to $2 billion in earnings.

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Re: STAR WARS: EPISODE VIII - THE LAST JEDI
« Reply #86 on: December 17, 2017, 09:47:21 PM »

Critics reviews on rotten tomatoes that said they liked it:
Fanatics will love it; for the rest of us, it's a tolerably good time.

The Last Jedi should be the last Jedi. My interest died along with Hans Solo who took with him that cowboys in space humor that made the franchise so special.

Well at least on second viewing fanatics love it. :)  I have not been yet for a second viewing, I will try another theatre and hopefully fall in love with it like a few people seem to be.

I went back and looked at the rotten tomatoes ratings and I think the executives will not be ignoring the audience reviews.   The Force Awakens did very well.  The Last Jedi was going to do well because people came to see part 2.   But if the audience does not like the follow up movie... they could lose the next generation of kids who they need to carry on a successful franchise .   

TFA Critics (378 reviews) 93% liked it Audience (224,183 reviews) 88%
TLJ Critics (297 reviews) 93% liked it Audience (100,200 reviews) 56%
Thor Ragnarok Critics 92% liked Audience 88% - this is their bench mark.

Unless the next 125,000 people decide they all like it pretty hard to ignore those numbers.   

I guarantee 100% they are talking about the 56% and they are concern.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2017, 09:53:28 PM by Canadian Jedi »
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KaleDayspring

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Re: STAR WARS: EPISODE VIII - THE LAST JEDI
« Reply #87 on: December 17, 2017, 10:10:48 PM »

Well, I saw 2/3rds of it on the IMAX before the Audio locked, and since I could only see it Saturday, I had to run to catch it again.

When asked last night at a Christmas party, I answered - I was entertained for 2.5 hours. Because if I had said what I really felt, I might have ruined it for some.

I loved it. Yes it had some flaws and so gaping holes, but overall, I loved it.

Pros
The Luke story. Right from the beginning with the saber toss, you knew there was some major indifference in him. But as he and Rey draw on one another, the story grew on me. And the "Dark Empire" Force transmission was brilliant. The final battle with Kylo was brilliant and his passing was perfect. Yes I was sad but at the same time I actually felt OK with his dying. I am hoping a force ghost Luke will be in 9. NEED a final battle Luke figure.

The Resistance plot - from 400 to 25. The losses. The struggle. It just drew you back in to loving the underdog. If they don't make a Holdo in command chair, it will be a tragedy. I was asked why things were kept secret. Who knows what spies there are there? I agree that the mutiny was a bit contrived, but it made for some great optics (Leia blasting Poe and then the raised hands)

Finn - I am glad to have him back and I really hope there is no love triangle between him Rose and Rey. I really like the Rose/Finn dynamics. They are the same characters, the janitors in the series who become heroes. You want to cheer for them.

The humor - if you had a problem with the humour, you will have missed some perfect timings. From the saber toss killing the intensity of the transition scene to the Hux call, to the Porg hitting the window. It just played some little laughs that were needed. Ryan did a far better job adding humor that George tried to do with Jar Jar in 1.

Kylo - After 7 I was totally thinking "Dude's gotta die" Half way through when everyone is thinking he's changed I thinking "Dude's gotta die" At the end, I was hoping that Hux would have walked up behind him and shot him in the head. He became the villain, not a jerk in a mask.

The Force - from Rey to Luke to Leia (a throwback to the idea that his sister is just as powerful) to Kylo to Yoda. Did anyone catch the books on the Millennium Falcon. When Finn gets a blanket for Rose, they are at the back of the drawer.

Disappointing
The bombers - Yes, I get they have a bunch of bombs but there is no weight in space. Go faster. Yes I get it was for tension but come on.

Quick Characters - From Paige to Talia to Snoke to DJ to Phasma, so many new characters (or returning who were underused) that you want to see developed and they end up dying. (OK with DJ I really hope he was offed when the cruiser hypersliced Snoke's ship). The hick on Canto Bight really pissed me off. Let's put a country bumpkin in the movie. I love that there were a great amount of characters, but it was a bit overwhelming

The Ugly
Snoke - way too easy

The pacing - oh god did it drag at times. The fuel consumption issue. "They're smaller and quicker" Fricken send out waves of Ties. 2 ties and Kylo smoked off the leadership. They're cannon fodder. Just do it.

One question. At the end, when the kid grabs the broom. Did he summon it? It looked like it kinds jumped into his hand.
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Re: STAR WARS: EPISODE VIII - THE LAST JEDI
« Reply #88 on: December 18, 2017, 12:14:27 AM »

As Cashfan said, you can find out about the First Order from the books. Basically, the empire collapsed a while after ROTJ, but part of that was self-induced based on a plan put in motion by the emperor, should he die. Only a select group of the leadership were kept and went off to the unknown regions to create the First Order. While I can understand the comments about wanting to know more, I disagree that all of this should be in the films. We all loved the OT precisely because it didn't get bogged down with all of this kind of crap. The PT tried to explain every detail of the political climate, who Palpatine was, how he rose to power, etc. and we found it boring. I think they have it right this time - people can follow the movie and enjoy it as is, but if you really have an interest in finding out more, read the books.

A great way to get into the back story is to pick up Shattered Empire graphic novel.  It picks up right as ROTJ ends and is a quick fun read.


One question. At the end, when the kid grabs the broom. Did he summon it? It looked like it kinds jumped into his hand.

Yes, he is force sensitive.  That scene is supposed to be reminiscent of when Luke is gazing up at the stars in ANH believing that there is something more to his existence. 
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Re: STAR WARS: EPISODE VIII - THE LAST JEDI
« Reply #89 on: December 18, 2017, 05:12:57 AM »

I agree with CJ inasmuch as I'm sure they are crunching the numbers and trying to figure out why the audience reaction is what it is. I'm wondering, though, how many of us would have left ESB in 1980 completely satisfied? I remember being pissed off that it was left hanging like that.

If Rotten Tomatoes existed back then, would the greatest movie ever made have fared much better in the first week after its release? I honestly believe we are only able to appreciate ESB for what it is because of the unbelievably tidy way everything was resolved 3 years later by ROJ.
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