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Author Topic: the morality of figure collecting.  (Read 5450 times)

apu nahasapenipeth

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Re:the morality of figure collecting.
« Reply #15 on: February 24, 2005, 09:34:56 AM »

Whether it's LEGO or Star Wars Toys you should stop to think that the plastics used are petroleum based which means you are helping support some of the most evil governements in the world (Iran, Saudi Arabia, Libya, UAE) when you purchase your Chewbacca.  I'd be a lot more ethically concerned that my toy $ is helping someone fly a plane into a building than I would about somebody not making a decent wage based on NA standards.

True, some of that oil may come from Canada, but I highly doubt all of it or even a significant portion does.

As for Wal-Mart, I love Wal-Mart best prices almost anywhere and employees there aren't any worse off than at Zeller's Shopper's Drug Mart or Zehrs which nobyd boycotts.  And the fact they stuck it to the union in St. Jonquiere last week makes me like them even more.

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Morgbug

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Re:the morality of figure collecting.
« Reply #16 on: February 24, 2005, 09:42:52 AM »

Rad, that's the classic view of DDT.  What you and so many do not understand is what is meant by space spray.  No one is advocating widespread, indiscriminate application of DDT.  This stuff is sprayed on the walls and ceilings of dwellings and only there.  It's not sprayed like RAID as an aerosol.  

The behaviour of the vector mosquitos is to sit on the walls, thereby coming in contact with the DDT and dying.  The non-target effects are fairly minimal if not nearly non-existent.  

Riddle me this: what's more important, an eagle or a child?  I guess the answer depends on whether you're the parent or not.  

It's not a fair question though, because there would be no effect on birds in Africa and other areas affected by spraying dwellings.

You see, that's the problem we have with generalized perception of stuff that environmentalists latch onto.  You only get the negative and that's why I get so vehement about it.  Somehow, someway it became more important to talk about the great bogeyman DDT and ensure it is never, ever used again.  The cost?  A paltry few million lives in the third world.  Meh, who cares right, so long as our sensibilities are not offended.  

We can talk at length about DDT if you like, I'll even provide the peer reviewed references, but I can tell you it was use pattern of DDT more than the DDT itself.  Indiscriminate application of large amounts of poison are not a good idea, but if you go drop equivalent amounts of table salt over the same area, you're going to have some pretty bad things happen too.  

B.Sc. 88 zoology major, statistics minor
B.S.A. 92 entomology major, toxicology minor
M.Sc. 97 entomology

Not trying to argue from a position of authority, just stating the qualifications.  I know more than enough brilliant people without any degree at all and far too many PhD's that are complete idiots.  
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Morgbug

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Re:the morality of figure collecting.
« Reply #17 on: February 24, 2005, 10:11:31 AM »

Spraying dwellings with DDT.... sure.. that sounds great in theory too... let's concentrate on getting parents to stop smoking when they are pregnant and smoking in the same place where there children are. The media tells me that second hand smoke causes cancer, is that a lie too? What are the benefits of second hand smoke?  ::)

We're really dragging Dave's topic far away here.

So not spraying DDT and having people die is a better option?  

Your smoking analogy doesn't fit here, there's no benefit to smoking (unless you factor in the enjoyment, stress reduction, taste that more than a few people enjoy - not me, never smoked, never have).  That's completely not true with DDT space spray.  There is a direct and trackable effect in terms of lives NOT lost.  In countries where it has been banned the death rate (and to use the media trick of tugging at heart strings), predominantly among women and children that spend more time in the home, rises dramatically.  In those countries that banned and then reversed the decision on DDT there is a direct and dramatic drop in the death rate.  

It's not a theory, it's a proven, documentable fact.  Space spray with DDT saves lives and lots of them.  The choice of not using it is to condemn them to death.  I don't see how that's a remotely supportable position and sort of makes the thought of poor work conditions seem pretty darn petty.  
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DarthVader77

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Re:the morality of figure collecting.
« Reply #18 on: February 24, 2005, 10:15:02 AM »

Getting back to the topic at hand...  ;)

CBC actually did a piece on this very topic in the late 1990's. A mother out in B.C. did some very in-depth research and found out the same things mentioned in the original post about sweatshops and the deplorable working conditions.

In the interview, the CBC even visited some Canadian toy companies and asked what processes they go through when selecting a factory in order to comply with proper business ethics.

One year, a group of concerned parents distributed flyers to Christmas shoppers in Vancouver indicating the issues cited so that the average consumer would know the details about the origins of their childrens' toys.

The flyer had a picture of a very familiar Mattel doll on it entitled "Sweatshop Barbie".
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Morgbug

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Re:the morality of figure collecting.
« Reply #19 on: February 24, 2005, 10:35:47 AM »

The smoking thing was just a jab at your portrayal of the media. That's all.

Fair enough, but I have no love of the media, as is obvious I suppose.  Check relative risk in epidemiology.

BTW, as a government employee I can tell you I don't trust the government either ;)
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Lord Wader

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Re:the morality of figure collecting.
« Reply #20 on: February 24, 2005, 10:56:57 AM »

Well this topic is on its way to nasty ville if its not already there ::) Everyone has valid points even though some are less subtle than others and as I said before there is no easy answer.

This bickering is pointless even though I like too debate/argue as much as some others :P The human race is a big freight train that's not stopping for anything. You're either along for the ride or going to get run over. That doesn't mean we stop caring or trying to make changes.

I have to commend anyone that tries to make a difference no matter how indirect. Life is pendulum that pauses longer to the extreme left or right with brief pauses in the center of balance. I believe that as we struggle for whats right or wrong is what keeps the pendulum moving with very little middle ground and that will never change, sorry.

The only reason I mention my autistic son is because it does influence my decisions. I live in Manitoba which is notorious for mosquitos and the debate for chemical use thrives here. My son does not know better to swat, avoid or take action to prevent himself from being bitten. Do I douse him in chemicals, use natural products that don't work, fog etc. I bought a mosquito magnet(a contraption that attracts and traps them) which worked great. But it was stolen and they're not cheap. So now I'm back to fogging.
He scratches the bites till they bleed and its very tough to keep him indoors. Not to mention the concern of diseases these lovely creatures can spread.

So whats my point you ask? The chemicals I'm now using may effect the environment an the people around me. Heck, some of the products I use may be made in sweat shops...I don't know. At some point I don't even care. My only concern is my son who will never be able to fend for himself.

What does this have to with Star Wars toys....nothing. I has to with the decisions we make on a daily basis good and bad. Everyone has a story, rhyme and reason. I can't solve the world's problems and it can't solve mine.

I will by Star Wars toys even though it may affect someone adversely. So again Dave, do what you need to do to sleep at night. Only you have to live with your conscience. We all walk different roads with different shoes and its a matter of which side of the pendulum we are walking towards today. Its not black or white to me.

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Lord Wader

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Re:the morality of figure collecting.
« Reply #21 on: February 24, 2005, 11:18:11 AM »

Someone stole a mosquito magnet??? How much do they go for? Where do i find them? And I thought my citronella candle was high tech...

http://www.mosquitomagnet.com/

It works very well and I speak from experince. In a heavy infestation year it would trap well over a 100,000 in 3 months. If anyone wants more info send me a P.M.
They range from $400-$1500, mine was the latter :'(
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Morgbug

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Re:the morality of figure collecting.
« Reply #22 on: February 24, 2005, 11:35:55 AM »

Given that I'm one of the provincial entomologists I'm going to be more annoying.  Mosquito magnets don't really work very well at all.  The most recent study done by a graduate student at the University of Manitoba showed that while they indeed do attract and catch phenomenal numbers of mosquitoes, they don't really do much to reduce the biting rate.  

I'm not trying to contradict what you say Rene, at least not for the purposes of making your life miserable.  I'm only passing on the most recent research.  

The good folks that sell mosquito magnets approached all of the entomologists in Manitoba that hold a professional, public position.  They did this in turn.  Each of us in turn asked them for data.  They had none.  That was the purpose of the study, it just didn't give them the answer they wanted.  

I'm happy it worked for you and that you were pleased with it.  I dearly hope it is returned, however unlikely that is. And all my best wishes for your boy (and you).  

Not that my opinion matters for much, but that fogging you are doing will control the insect population and realistically will have minimal, if any, effects on your neighbours.

With respect to pesticides in general, I'm not going to enter that debate here.  Some relevant links if you are remotely interested:

Round one

round two

round three

If Rad wants to have fun with the media, tell me how many of those studies made it to mainstream media?  Bruce Ames, for those of you that don't know is the guy that invented the Ames test.  All those times you hear about something causing cancer?  Well, that's reported because whatever they are reporting on has undergone the test he invented.  After 30+ years of research, see what he has to say.  

BTW, Lord Wader, which model of the mosquito magnet did you have?  Maybe there's some difference that made yours work better?
« Last Edit: February 24, 2005, 12:01:46 PM by Morgbug »
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Morgbug

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Re:the morality of figure collecting.
« Reply #23 on: February 24, 2005, 11:41:12 AM »

Don't go, I'm having fun.   :)

But once again I'll really apologize for ruining Dave's topic :-[

Maybe you mods can split part off and call it Morbug's rant or something like that.  Then ban me from replying in Dave's thread.
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Shane Turgeon

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Re:the morality of figure collecting.
« Reply #24 on: February 24, 2005, 01:33:31 PM »

I wasn't going to reply to this one again because i really don't think i need to justify the choices i make in my own personal life to someone i've never even met on a Star Wars toy collecting board but alas, me and my big mouth... ;)

I guess "ridiculous" is all in the eye of the beholder. I find people who live their lives like the sheep around them doing everything blindly, buying into mass marketing and consumption and not questioning what goes on around them ridiculous...to each their own. No, i don't shop at Wal-mart, support american fast food chains, drink Starbucks, etc. I also no longer by Chuck Tayler All-Star shoes because they were bought out by Nike last year. There's no bandwagon here, i've been doing this for a loooong time. There also no bandwagon in my GFs case - it's not easy to decide on your own to become a vegetarian when you're 9.

Now, to answer your questions: No, i don't watch sports. What kind of toy nerd would i be if i did that. ;) I don't have kids and i don't use contraception (i don't feel the need to get into the why's of that much of my personal life with you). I also tend not to take modern medicines when sick and try to go the natural route.

I drive a 1990 Cutlas Ciera but i bike a lot when the weather permits, i wear the aforementioned Chuck Taylor's, vegan skate shoes, or army boots bought second hand that don't support the current trade, i don't have a leather recliner (my GF does but it was a second hand gift from her father), i have one cat, my shirts are made in Canada or the US (and yes, i am aware of our own "sweat shops" but they're a damn side better than the foreign ones), couldn't tell ya where she shops, i use Viriginia's soap - it's independently owned and operated by Canadians who actually make the soap themselves, oh and my shampoos are all vegan and independant too if you're wondering, looking at my belt, not sure what you want me to see, haven't been to the dentist lately, no...so, there are those answers. I could give you more but again, my life isn't on trial here and frankly, it's none of your () business.  

The fact is, i have made these choices for ME and no one else. They are not easy choices to make. If you think it's "in" to go around and read every label of every food product you buy, to search and search and search for a suitable retaurant to eat in while travelling, to pay more than double for natural and organic vegetarian and vegan foods, find clothes made in tolerable conditions, etc then you go right ahead and do so....i'd challenge anyone to do it for a year and see how far they get.

I'm sure if you sat there and let you're little brain turn and churn you could find a thousand other things to try throw in my face. Could i do more...yup, i won't deny that but i already do about 90% more than most and i'm comfortable with where i stand. To quote Jello Biafra, "no one can live 100% "politically correct" but so long as you recognize the problems and do what little you can in your life to fix things, then you're doing something". And to me, "something" is better than nothing.

I'm done replying to Rad as at this point, he's just being petty. But i did want to reply to Morgbug: no worries man, i knew you weren't questioning my beleifs and i thank you for it. :)

expletive removed as per policy... please refrain from using profanity... thank you-Rad74
« Last Edit: February 25, 2005, 11:41:52 AM by Radiation74 »
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Darth Paul

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Re:the morality of figure collecting.
« Reply #25 on: February 24, 2005, 05:20:16 PM »

I once started a topic about this very subject and no one replied!  Good to see so much action this time around.  I must be a thread killer.
I have often been conflicted about buying SW toys.
In this day and age it is very difficult to be an ethical consumer.  I used to try to do most of my clothes shopping at Roots or Mountain Equipment Co-op but even these two stores have more and more labels turning up lately with the old familiar "Made In Indonesia".
And just try buying shoes that aren't made in China.  It's practically impossible.
Some suggested reading:

"NO LOGO" by Naomi Klein
"The Corporation" by Joel Bakan

Read these books and then come back and talk about how great it is that Western corporations so "generously" give jobs to people in the Third World that wouldn't otherwise have them.  IMO that argument is the ultimate cop-out justification for economic exploitation, plain and simple.
As Shane has said, all you can do is what you can.  I try to buy clothing that was made in Canada or the US.
I very rarely eat fast food.
I won't buy gas at Shell.
I try to shop at Zeller's instead of Wal-Mart.
I don't watch much TV.
I read books.

These things all help.  Little by little the Rebellion is growing.  With some luck maybe our grandchildren won't be serfs bound to a corporate feudal system.

Lord Wader

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Re:the morality of figure collecting.
« Reply #26 on: February 24, 2005, 06:32:13 PM »

Shane Turgeon; I have to applaud for sticking to your convictions Its not an easy thing to do and while I'm not as committed as yourself I have my own trials.
I personaly don't believe anything helps. In some small ways it may seem like a difference but in the end it will result in failure. Kind of like the battle of Endor but with no happy ending.
These things all help.  Little by little the Rebellion is growing.  With some luck maybe our grandchildren won't be serfs bound to a corporate feudal system. I'm afraid that won't happen.
As history will attest change will only come on a grand scale when things are so dire there is nothing else to lose and nothing will change that till that time comes. So I just live life the best I can and enjoy whatever good things come my way and don't think about it anymore.
Pessimistic you say, dam right! Humanity hasn't given me a reason to think otherwise ;) I tend not to speak about these topics anymore because I become a downer. I know people will disagree but I can come up with a ton of reasons why you will be wrong. I have no faith in humanity as a whole.

End of my Pessimistic rant :P
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hounds tooth

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Re:the morality of figure collecting.
« Reply #27 on: February 24, 2005, 07:02:17 PM »

I have no faith in humanity as a whole.


You are not the only one!
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Shane Turgeon

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Re:the morality of figure collecting.
« Reply #28 on: February 24, 2005, 09:02:15 PM »

I have no faith in humanity as a whole.


You are not the only one!

I'm the same way. I don't do the things i do out of a love for people, i do them out of a hatred for multi-nationals and greedy western gov'ts. I'm glad to see i'm not alone here.
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Shane Turgeon

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Re:the morality of figure collecting.
« Reply #29 on: February 25, 2005, 01:36:37 AM »

You know Rad, one's really got to wonder what your problem is. I don't know if you're trying to wind people up, if you have a drinking before typing problem or you're really just this stupid but your posts in this thread have been purely antagonistic and outright unnecessary. If you don't agree with the topic then skip over it and let those that do discuss it....no one needs your pithy interjections that serve no purpose. Behaviour like this is hardly fitting for a forum member but to see it from a "moderator" on this site is unbelievable.


second expletive removed !!- Rad74
« Last Edit: February 25, 2005, 11:42:49 AM by Radiation74 »
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